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#1 Butch

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 12:33 PM

Hi,

I'm going to be getting a new PC soon, I have the option of Windows but I'm not a massive fan to be honest. I am now considering using Linux because I've been told it's come a fair distance over the last few years, but I've not actually done any research on it myself, just going by hearsay. Just throwing this out there, has anyone or is anyone using Linux and if so, what is the interface like and is it a worthwhile and stable OS?

 

Cheers, and virtual beer in advance

 

Butch


Edited by Butch, 22 January 2017 - 12:34 PM.

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#2 Gary

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 12:44 PM

I have Linux Mint on a laptop and a netbook. I use Windows 10 at home on my desktop. At home I use too many Windows programs to use Linux but when traveling, Mint works fine. If you want to surf the web or want to use programs like word processing or a spread sheet Linux is fine. With Linux I don't have to worry about viruses or updates. It all depends on what you want to do.


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#3 Bazle

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 01:03 PM

With Linux I don't have to worry about viruses or updates.


Probably a dumbo question but why not?
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#4 Gary

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 01:41 PM

Probably a dumbo question but why not?

 

I really can't give a knowledgeable answer but maybe one reason is because every time you want to change something in Linux, you have to put in your password. I think it's just not worth a hackers time and effort to try to get by just that protection. I'm sure Linux is not virus proof but the assholes don't seem to want to bother.


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#5 js007

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 02:50 PM

I never did have much luck keeping all the viruses, worms, and malware off my PCs.  And the day I found a key logger on my PC was the last straw.  I went out and bought a Macintosh.  I've used those ever since.  But the funny thing is, I hardy use my laptop much anymore, except when I travel.  When I'm at home I use either my iMac at my desk, or, if I'm elsewhere in the house, I use one of the iPads.  Those things are great and weigh next to nothing. Next time I travel I might ditch my laptop altogether.

 

Anyway, another option to consider might be a Chromebook.  I guess you need Wi-Fi to use them, but the price is right.


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#6 Bazle

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 02:56 PM

 

I really can't give a knowledgeable answer but maybe one reason is because every time you want to change something in Linux, you have to put in your password. I think it's just not worth a hackers time and effort to try to get by just that protection. I'm sure Linux is not virus proof but the assholes don't seem to want to bother.

 

Thanks, Gary.


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#7 yselmike

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 03:42 PM

I have Linux Mint on a laptop and a netbook. I use Windows 10 at home on my desktop. At home I use too many Windows programs to use Linux but when traveling, Mint works fine. If you want to surf the web or want to use programs like word processing or a spread sheet Linux is fine. With Linux I don't have to worry about viruses or updates. It all depends on what you want to do.


You do need to update but it's all done with a couple of clicks of the mouse and sometimes your password and sometimes a restart,as for viruses as only 2% or so of computers run on Linux and most users are tech savvy it's not worth the spammers time and effort.
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#8 Samsonite

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 05:20 PM

Slackware64 Linux is on my desktop.

It depends on what you want to do with your computer, but unless you have a windows based application for which there is no Linux equivalent (which is getting rare), there is no need to use ms-windows. OTOH, I have heard of web sites that will only work with ms-windows browsers, but there are ways around that.

 

There are literally hundreds of Linux distributions, some made for general use and some for

specific utilization.

 

Distrowatch.com a good place to start your research, https://distrowatch.com/

At the top of the page is a link to a bit of history about the more popular Linux distributions,

https://distrowatch....?resource=major

 

Once you get your "feet wet" and have questions, Linuxquestions.org is a good source of

intormation, https://www.linuxque....org/questions/

 

The MAC operating system is very much based on FreeBSD and other open source projects and is a remote cousin of Linux. What we know as BSD (Berkeley Software Distribution) and was developed at the University of California, at Bekeley (CAL). 

https://en.wikipedia...re_Distribution

 

Linux was developed by Linus Torvalds a, then, 19 years old college student at the University of Helsinki, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Torvalds

Linux, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux

Mr. Torvalds is now a U.S. Citizen and lives in the Portland, Oregon area.

 

There are several reasons there are more viruses and malware written for ms-windows.

One, ms-windows is the largest target and the sick, twisted minds that write vriuses, etc.,

want the largest possible audience (read, pool of victims).

Also, ms-windows was, originally, meant to be a single standalone operating system (running on top of DOS or NT) and security wasn't much of a consideration, that is, it was an easy target.

BSD and Linux, OTOH, were written from the very start with network security in mind.

 

For beginners, Linux Mint, is very popular, especially among former ms-windows users.

https://linuxmint.com/

 

There are several desktop environments for Linux and the *BSDs, but, again, among

former windows users, the KDE desktop is very popular, https://www.kde.org/

I'm not a big fan of the latest KDE, what they calll Plasma 5, or what others call KDE-5,

but you can't beat it for the number and variety of applications that come with it.

I bounce between Xfce and KDE-4, but still use several KDE applications while using

the Xfce desktop. During the holiday season  (or anytime you wish) you can run XSnow on Xfce. It puts

"trees" on the desktop, falling snow that accumulates on the desktop, and every

once in a while, Santa and Rudolph fly by. :) XSnow won't run on the newer versions

of KDE.

 

BTW, to make it even more confusing :) there are also "window mangers" that are

not "desktop environments," but that is another converstion best had after someone

has become a Linux user and has a little experience under their belt.

 

That is not to say Linux is difficult. Distributions like Linux Mint are as easy, if not

easier, to install and run than ms-windows.

I can install Slackware Linux in less time than ms-windows, but, OTOH, Slackware

is for those who don't mind learning something new and are willing to roll up their

sleeves and get under the hood (bonnet for the cousins). :)

 

BTW, Dell sells both desktops and laptops with Ubuntu Linux installed. In a recent

article a Dell excutive refused to state how many have been sold, but he did say

it has been a very successful project and the sales of their Linux based computers

are into the tens of millions of Dollars.

http://pilot.search.dell.com/Linux


Edited by Samsonite, 23 January 2017 - 03:47 PM.

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#9 Odense

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 05:33 PM

Ubuntu or Mint will be good for you Butch. Ubuntu.com is the place for Ubuntu.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Edited by Odense, 22 January 2017 - 05:34 PM.

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#10 Butch

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 06:22 PM

Many thanks for the replies chaps, most helpful. The PC will be used for surfing, emails, spreadsheets and streaming content around the house, so nothing unique or specific to Win.

 

Samsonite I'll make a start by going through the links and gaining some knowledge as I go along. As Gary and Odense have both mentioned it looks like Mint will be ideal for my needs.

 

One last question before I go searching , I run avast firewall and AV and sit behind Private Internet Access proxy servers (when I can be bothered to connect!), I trust Mint or Ubuntu can runn these spplications with ease?.

 

Cheers again and another round of virtual SM lights for you all.


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#11 Samsonite

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 06:45 PM

The only anti-virus software I've ran on Linux is ClamAV. I've read of commerical anti-virus products for

Linux, but have never ran one as I haven't had the need.

ClamAV, https://en.wikipedia.../Clam_AntiVirus

 

On occasion I also run a rootkit hunter, but have never found one, to date.

RKhunter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rkhunter

 

Everynow and then someone will bring me a hard drive they think is infected. I'll hook it up to my

Linux box and run ClamAV on both my drives and the "infected" drive. ClamAV has never found

a virus or malware on my Linux drives, but it always, without fail, to date, found one or two or more infections on the ms-windows drives.

 

There are several things you can do to make your Linux box even more secure and you will

discover those along the way.

 

Probably the most important, IMHO, is if you are not going to remotely log on to your computer,

disable SSH.  https://en.wikipedia...ki/Secure_Shell

 

Some Linux distribution let you choose whether or not to enable the SSH module during the installation.

BTW, "module" is Unix speak for "driver."  Some distributions have taken the approach of disabling the SSH module by default and will ask if you want it "turned on."

 

As I said, there are a series of things you can do, and I do a few, but a simple firewall and a firewall in your router, should be sufficient protection. OTOH, if some hacker is bound and determined........... Again, OTOH, with the right security tweaks you should be able to make your computer almost impossible for some hacker cruising the Internet to find and/or why bang their head against the wall trying to hack a secure system when there are plenty of ms-windows machines out there.

  :yikes:

:smile:

 

Oh, and, yes, you should be able to setup your proxy server.


Edited by Samsonite, 23 January 2017 - 03:43 PM.

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#12 Samsonite

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 07:30 PM

It occurred to me that new Linux users should be aware their commercial ms-software applications

are not "just going to run" on Linux.

 

LibreOffice is a good replacement for ms-office and, yes, it can read ms-office formats and save in

the same formats.. https://en.wikipedia...iki/LibreOffice

 

There is a company by the name of CodeWeavers who make a commerical product (a version of

the open source project called, WINE) that will run some ms-windows applications on Linux as if

they are native Linux applciations.

 

Codeweavers, https://www.codeweav...duckduckgo.com/

 

WINE, https://www.winehq.org/

 

If absolutely necessary or if you just want to experiment, you can run ms-windows or other operating

systems in a virtual machine on your Linux desktop or Linux on your ms-windows desktop.

I've had the best luck with VirtualBox, https://www.virtualbox.org/

 

If you are going to use Linux you should be prepared to dump some of your ms-windows only

applications and look for open source Linux equivalents. The price is right and, whether someone

chooses to believe it or not, many of these open source projects are just as good, if not better, than

their commerical counterparts.

Here is a partial list (which needs to be updated):

http://wiki.linuxque...indows_software


Edited by Samsonite, 23 January 2017 - 04:16 PM.

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#13 Gary

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 02:53 AM

I have tried a number of different Linux releases, including Ubuntu, Slackware and even the very small compact Puppy. I am no techie for sure and have found Linux Mint the best for me. Simple things for simple guys. I use Chrome for my browser, Open Office or whatever it is called now and Gmail or Hotmail (both) for my email. Once in a while Mint tells you updates are available and a couple of clicks gets that done. I can easily connect to the Internet with either my phone or an air card. I don't get into the nuts and bolts of Linux. It just simply works and works well.

 

ADDED - A friend of mine bought a new desktop with a counterfeit WIndows OS on it. He was too stubborn to add an antivirus program because of the frequent updates and Windows itself always wanting to update. He was constantly infected with malware and viruses. I put Mint 17.3 on it for him. He is using the already installed Firefox and he is a happy camper. Before having Mint, he was alway calling me to help him out. Both my laptop and netbook are running on version 17.3. There is a newer version but 17.3 works fine.


Edited by Gary, 23 January 2017 - 03:05 AM.

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#14 Odense

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 12:52 PM



 
I run avast firewall and AV and sit behind Private Internet Access proxy servers (when I can be bothered to connect!), I trust Mint or Ubuntu can runn these spplications with ease?.
 


PIA has a Linux Client but it does not work with the Gnome desktop which I use. The excellent help desk at PIA referred me to the easy setup of Open VPN (their client was based on that anyway) with their servers.
I have used Avast on my Ubuntu laptop before.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
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#15 Samsonite

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 04:47 PM

I mentioned WINE a few posts back and since then WINE has announced the release

of WINE 2.0.  The following review caught my attention as comments made by the

author show just how much the Linux desktop has improved in recent years.

 

The entire review can be fround at: http://www.networkwo...y-to-linux.html

 

 

Wine 2.0 brings MS Office 2013 compatibility to Linux If you run Linux and happen to use Windows software, it’s time to grab Wine 2.0

 

This week, Wine—the project that allows you to run many Microsoft Windows applications on non-Windows platforms—hit a rather huge milestone: version 2.0. ..................

.................I’ll be honest. The Mac OS tidbit isn’t all that interesting to me. But the support for Microsoft Office 2013 is, almost certainly, of interest to a number of people. (I don’t use it personally, but I know plenty of organizations that do.) ...........

Strong Linux ecosystem may obviate need to run Windows software

Yet this release did give me a bit of pause. 

As I sat here reading the release notes, I realized I don’t have Wine installed on any of my computers. In thinking about it, I’m not sure if I’ve installed Wine even once during all of last year. 2016 was completely Wine-less for me. 

The fact is I simply haven’t needed to use a piece of Windows software in quite a long time. I’m sure there are lots of Linux users who do—and I can think of dozens of scenarios where having Wine would come in extremely handy in migrating both individuals and organizations away from Windows.

I certainly don’t want that statement to downplay the value of having such a robust and capable Windows compatibility layer for Linux desktops. It’s more a testament to how far the native Linux software ecosystem has come that my need to run any Windows software has vanished. 

If you’re not like me and you do happen to use Windows software, it’s time to grab Wine 2.0.


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#16 Samsonite

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 12:54 AM

Most of this has already been said in various posts in this thread, but here it is in an article from ComputerWorld,

 

http://www.computerw...-run-linux.html


Edited by Samsonite, 02 February 2017 - 12:54 AM.

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#17 Samsonite

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 01:34 AM

This is an excellent article. Been there. Done that. ;-)

 

https://freedompengu...rs-break-linux/

 

 

WHY WINDOWS POWER USERS BREAK LINUX

As more people come to Linux, those of us who help the Windows refugees make the switch will need to be very patient with them. The more someone knows about Windows, the more likely it is that they will break Linux. Handing them a Linux laptop and saying, “Here ya go…” is not enough if they are going to succeed. You’re going to have to hold their hand for a while and telling them to “RTFM” will just drive them back to Windows. Understanding why they struggle as much as they do will help you to help them avoid some of the common pitfalls.

I specialize in helping people get started with Linux. I’ve helped hundreds of people over the last few years and I can pretty much spot the ones who are going to do well and those who are going to be frustrated. If a client approaches me and they start the conversation with “I’ve been using Windows for 20 years…” I know it’s going to be a bumpy ride.

The pattern is always the same: I walk them through an install and all is well for about two weeks and then I get a frustrated message from them about how Linux is stupid and doesn’t work. I know without asking that they’ve broken something major or borked up the whole system. I usually can fix the problem and make a good lesson out of it for them. I have gone so far as to walk them through a second installation from scratch. If the system is totally hosed, that’s the best way to go. Give them a clean slate to work with and hope they learned something.

On the other hand, if a client tells me that they know nothing about computers but they need one to get things done like writing documents, spreadsheets, web surfing and email then they usually have zero issues. I get them setup and I don’t hear from them again. I usually contact then after a month or two and they invariably tell me everything is working perfectly. I got a call from a gentleman I hadn’t heard from in a year and a half recently. He said everything was working nicely but he wanted some advice about upgrading his Linux Mint from 17.3 to 18.1 and could I help him get it right. No problem. Wonderful to hear that all is well!

I put my Mom on Linux a couple of years ago and she has had no major issues, as well. I go over there every so often and check on the state of the system and it’s chugging along just fine. I upgrade the kernel and that’s about it. She hasn’t even changed the wallpaper since I installed it. It’s not like she doesn’t use the computer; she’s on it every day. Since I switched her to Linux, she has embarked on a big research project that involves crunching a lot of information and scanning in mountains of documents and photos. She told me that she never did anything like that before because she was always afraid of breaking Windows that now that she’s using Linux she isn’t scared anymore.

So, what gives here? Sit a total newbie down in front of a Linux computer and they just start using it but hand Linux to a 20 plus year Windows power user and they trash it and get frustrated. Why is that?

I’m not a psychologist but I can hazard a guess or two on the subject. First off, nobody becomes an expert overnight. No, it takes years of practice. Lots of reading and experimenting and poking around have to take place before you can call yourself any kind of guru. A lot of it becomes muscle memory after a while. Take someone who is used to the Windows way of doing things and then put them in front of a Linux machine and it throws them off balance. What makes matters worse is that they are coming to Linux because they have reached a point of severe pain. They have become so disgusted with Windows that they are desperate to rid themselves of it. They’re impatient from the get go and that’s a bad place be mentally when you’re embarking on a big life change like learning Linux. Remember, we’re not talking about average users here… They feel like they’re smarter than the average bear and they can manipulate Windows to do their bidding. With Linux, everything they know doesn’t apply. It’s completely different.

These folks have a hard time taking what they see on the screen at face value and it has become an ingrained reflex to think in terms of “tricking” the system. Windows isn’t very up front about how it actually works. I remember back in my Windows Server days asking experts what the system was doing and they’d look at me and say, “I don’t know.” These were Microsoft certified engineers, folks. If they don’t know, who does? So, it’s easy to get into a place with Windows where you have to trick the system into doing what you need it to do. This kind of mentality doesn’t work with Linux at all and that’s where the problems really begin.

I have found that the attitude you someone brings to their first steps with Linux will define how the entire journey is going to go. If they expect Linux to work, look and act just like Windows then they are doomed to fail. Linux is NOT Windows and even though many newbie friendly distros work hard to look like Windows, they’re actually nothing like it under the hood at all. That can be very misleading to new users.

I liken moving from Windows to Linux to picking up and moving to another country. Let’s say I decide I don’t like being in America anymore so I decide to move to France. Now, if I expect everything in France to be just like it is in America, I’m going to be very frustrated when I get there. Example: Here in America, I know where all the good grocery stores are, I know what products I like to buy there and I don’t give buying food much thought at all. But, drop me in Paris and I won’t have a clue. Finding a grocery store won’t be too hard but I won’t know any of the brands. I can either ask for help or just go buy one of everything to see which ones I like best. I’ll have to learn how to feed myself again. I can either have fun with it and see it as a challenge or get miffed at France for being different. It’s all up to me. Same goes for Linux.

It’s also good to keep in mind that some Windows power users feel quite threatened by Linux. They have a lot of their identity wrapped up in Windows. They’re big fish at work and among their friends. Admitting that they don’t know something is hard for these people. These are the ones who post a constant stream of ill-informed negativity anywhere that Linux is brought up. Some feel like it’s their personal mission to stamp out Linux and discredit it at every turn. Their OS is their religion and, just like any fanatic, they must convert the lost and punish the infidels. I tend to completely ignore these folks. They’re not worth my time or yours, for that matter. Less commented Windows users are influenced by these folks, though. I spend a lot of my initial time with clients dispelling myths. You wouldn’t believe some of the crazy stuff I’ve heard.

I usually explain all of this to Windows refugees who’re struggling to adapt to Linux and I also remind them that they didn’t become Windows gurus without making quite a few mistakes along the way. I’m a good example myself. I was an early adopter of Windows XP. Most folks now point to XP as being the best Windows ever… Well, if you’d seen it on 2002, you’d wonder why. It was a buggy mess and it has numerous issues. I jumped directly from Windows 98 to XP and I know I trashed it completely at least five times in the first six months because I kept trying to “fix it.” That’s how I got good at installing Windows XP: Trial and error. Most long-time Windows users have forgotten all about that and when they find that they trash Linux it’s automatically Linux’s fault. I say don’t blame Linux if you screw it up out of ignorance. That’s not Linux’s fault, it’s yours. Own it, learn from it and move on.

Truth be told, there’s not a long-time Linux user out there who doesn’t have stories to tell about borking up a perfectly good Linux install because they got curious and started poking at the system. It’s part of the process of learning. Fortunately, re-installing Linux is usually not an all-day endeavor like rebuilding a Windows system is. As long as you keep good backups and hang on to your notes, you can usually redo a system in just and hour or two. I know of some Linux users who have written very intricate scripts to automate the process! They do not live in fear of breaking anything.

This is why I always advise Windows power users to leave their Windows setup alone and install Linux on a different machine, all by itself. These folks are going to trash Linux- it’s inevitable. Those who dual boot with Windows run the risk of trashing Windows, too. Yes, I’ve done that myself. I started out with Ubuntu by setting up a dual boot with Windows XP and I trashed both systems many times because I didn’t know what I was doing. It taught me how dual boots work, though.

Another piece of advice that I frequently give out it to take your time and don’t get ahead of yourself. Leave the system as it is for a while and just use it before you go hog-wild trying to tweak it. If you do want to change something about the desktop or swap out software then look before you leap. Chances are, there are lots of other users out there who have done the same thing and posted about how it went for them. Read those posts and decide for yourself whether it’s worth the risk of messing up your Linux install. If you’re doing it on a secondary machine or in a virtual machine then it doesn’t matter. Go for it and see what happens.

Speaking of Virtual Machines, VirtualBox is a powerful tool for learning in Linux. It lets you create any environment you want to and then just go crazy trying stuff out. You can snapshot the VM and then restore it if you try something that ends up not working. Back to square one. I very often try new software out in a VM before I install it on my main system. There are a lot of folks out there who are running Linux in VM’s on Mac and Windows and they kinda get stuck there. The truth of the matter is that they will never be comfortable enough with Linux to use it every day until they put it on hardware. I encourage these folks to take the plunge and get serious about it. Dual boots and VM’s are cool to start with but at some point, you need to throw away the security blanket to really get the feel of things.

Finally, I think it’s worth pointing out that Linux is not a product, it’s a community. Windows and Mac people have a hard time wrapping their heads around that. They’re used to venting frustration at Microsoft and Apple. If they do that in a Linux forum, they will most likely get flamed. It’s important to understand that attacking Linux is like attacking the entire community. Is Linux perfect? Hell no! Is there much room for improvement? Absolutely! How you present your critiques and/or ask for help makes all the difference in the world. I have found that a positive and constructive attitude goes a long, long way. I have had developers bend over backward to help me with a problem or point me to an alternative solution just because I came to them with respect and didn’t point fingers.

It’s up to us as a community to point all of this out to those poor souls who come to us from Windows in a nice way. We must be patient with newcomers if we want Linux to grow. There should be no room for elitism or bullying in our community. Linux is all about sharing and sharing is a noble human endeavor. Sometimes it’s not as easy as it should be, though. There’s a fine line between helping someone to find what’s best for them and forcing what works for you on them. You can lead a horse to water… Well, you get what I mean. ‘Nuff said.

--

Edited by Samsonite, 13 May 2017 - 01:42 AM.

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#18 iIanPPI

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 04:37 PM

I used Debian for many years, mainly because of the security side of things. Now I'm using Windows just because I need video editing software and stuff like that, which you can run on Linux using Wine, but it's just a headache to do that. I recently bought a notebook which was 13,900 baht with no OS, for a Windows license they charge 2,000 baht (bring the total to 15,900). After expressing my displeasure with the sales assistant he installed a pirated version of Windows on the computer, along with pirated version of Windows office, winrar and a bunch of other stuff. Which is fine except I can't get updates, but for 2K less, that's OK with me.  :D


Edited by iIanPPI, 19 May 2017 - 04:38 PM.

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#19 jacko

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 11:27 PM

I used Debian for many years, mainly because of the security side of things. Now I'm using Windows just because I need video editing software and stuff like that, which you can run on Linux using Wine, but it's just a headache to do that. I recently bought a notebook which was 13,900 baht with no OS, for a Windows license they charge 2,000 baht (bring the total to 15,900). After expressing my displeasure with the sales assistant he installed a pirated version of Windows on the computer, along with pirated version of Windows office, winrar and a bunch of other stuff. Which is fine except I can't get updates, but for 2K less, that's OK with me.  :D

It is some time ago but I bought a laptop and it came with a Genuine Windows licence, I also paid for Office, a legit copy. Some of the other 'free' crap  on there was infected with viruses so get your computer scanned quick. Don't forget, if you cannot perform OS updates, you are vulnerable to new nasty stuff, like the Wannacry ransomware.

 

Many many computers are sold here with pirated Windows.


Edited by jacko, 19 May 2017 - 11:28 PM.

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#20 yselmike

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 12:12 AM

I used Debian for many years, mainly because of the security side of things. Now I'm using Windows just because I need video editing software and stuff like that, which you can run on Linux using Wine, but it's just a headache to do that. I recently bought a notebook which was 13,900 baht with no OS, for a Windows license they charge 2,000 baht (bring the total to 15,900). After expressing my displeasure with the sales assistant he installed a pirated version of Windows on the computer, along with pirated version of Windows office, winrar and a bunch of other stuff. Which is fine except I can't get updates, but for 2K less, that's OK with me.  :D


Penny wise pound foolish,
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#21 Samsonite

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Posted Today, 03:37 PM

I used Debian for many years, mainly because of the security side of things. Now I'm using Windows just because I need video editing software and stuff like that, which you can run on Linux using Wine, but it's just a headache to do that. .....

 

 

Linux based video editing software is available. I've used Cinelerra with excellent results.

 

https://en.wikipedia...diting_software


Edited by Samsonite, Today, 03:38 PM.

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